February 24, 2022
The first panel of The George Washington Law Review‘s Volume 90 Symposium was a judicial panel moderated by Professor Bradford R. Clark, William Cranch Research Professor of Law at The George Washington University Law School. The panelists were the Honorable Goodwin H. Liu, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of California, the Honorable John B. Owens, Judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, and the Honorable Paul Watford, Judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. All three judges clerked for Justice Ginsburg early in her tenure on the Supreme Court during the late 1990s.
The first question posed to the panelists by Professor Bradford was what, in their opinions, are the most significant aspects to Justice Ginsburg’s legacy.
Justice Liu answered the question by reflecting on just how remarkable Justice Ginsburg’s career was. Although the future Justice Ginsburg was already a founding member of the American Civil Liberties Union’s Women’s Rights Project before her nomination to the federal judiciary, she went on to accomplish even more. Her legal legacy reflected how deeply she believed in the promise of this country; Justice Ginsburg viewed our Constitution as a work in progress, and she played her own part in realizing that promise. As she became a prominent public figure, particularly in the last decade of her life, she showed tremendous savvy in how to manage her own public identity and manage her voice, both on and off the bench. She also had “great political instincts” that she used throughout her career.
Judge Owens echoed Justice Liu’s remarks and noted the savviness of Justice Ginsburg. Her ability as a litigator and then as a colleague on the Court to make connections with people was extraordinary, exemplified by Justice Ginsburg’s strong bonds with Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justice O’Connor, both of whom respected her.
Judge Watford agreed with the other panelists and added that Justice Ginsburg was only the second woman on the Court, and that she played a role in blazing a path for women. He quoted a phrase from Justice Ginsburg: that having women serve on the bench “says to the world we’re not one-at-a-time curiosities; we are here to stay.”
The second question asked to the panelists was whether they had any personal recollections about the impact that Justice Ginsburg had on them and their careers.
Justice Liu began by noting Justice Ginsburg’s attention to detail as a writer and her meticulousness as a person. He recalled Justice Ginsburg penciling corrections on internal documents that no other than the Justice would read—her way of demanding perfection in everything that appeared before her eyes. It made an impression on Justice Liu to see “someone at her level sweat all the small stuff,” and he said that he has carried that with him throughout his career.
Judge Owens learned from Justice Ginsburg that, “you can never be the second-most prepared person in the courtroom if you want to win.” He also noted her sense of humor by telling a story about how she could cleverly poke fun at people, such as an attorney general who mixed up her and Justice O’Connor, which he related to her political savviness and ability to connect with people.
Judge Watford fondly recalled watching the partnership and marriage between Justice Ginsburg and her husband, Marty. The love between the two of them and how much he supported her career has been something that Judge Watford has tried to model that in his own marriage. He also learned from her how to build professional relationships with people across the political aisle—and those with whom he did not see eye-to-eye on fundamental issues—by watching Justice Ginsburg build relationships with all her colleagues on the bench.
Professor Clark echoed this statement by noting that he clerked for Judge Bork on the D.C. Circuit when Justice Ginsburg served on the D.C. Circuit and she established a close working relationship and friendship with Judge Bork as well, despite their ideological differences.
The third question was what it was like to be a law clerk for Justice Ginsburg whether the panelists had incorporated lessons she taught them as judges themselves.
Justice Liu reflected that he clerked in the year that Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), was decided, a time that was “unusual to say the least” and “fairly stressful.” He said that the most stunning thing about that experience was how calm Justice Ginsburg was the whole time; while the law clerks were “highly exercised” during it because there was such a time crunch, she was incredibly steady even in frustrating moments. According to Justice Liu, Justice Ginsburg was not of a frame of mind to let an unusual case to rattle her or the court, and she had the long view in mind—she was aware that she had to work with her colleagues on the Court for a very long time.
Judge Owens shared that, as soon as a case would end, Justice Ginsburg immediately began writing her opinion because she believed that she would never write a better opinion by delaying. He has carried that with him to the Ninth Circuit, which does not operate in terms but issues opinions in a “timely” manner, and Judge Owens has taken Justice Ginsburg’s approach as a model for himself.
Judge Watford shared his takeaway that the people who are successful at Justice Ginsburg’s level have to work extremely hard to get there. She kept unusual work hours, arriving at the Court around 1:30 or 2:00 p.m. and working until 3:30 or 4:00 in the morning, bur Judge Watford said that that did not hinder Justice Ginsburg’s productivity in the slightest.
The fourth question posed to the panelists was whether there were aspects of their working relationship with the Justice when they were law clerks that they have incorporated with their own law clerks, or whether they purposefully do certain things differently.
Justice Liu began by noting the intimacy of the relationship between a judge and their law clerks because clerks are the only people with whom the judge can talk about anything of substance. The law clerks pay attention to everything the judge does, so Justice Liu view it as important to think about the behavior that a judge models for their clerks and the memorable experiences that the clerks will take away from the experience. Justice Liu recalled that Justice Ginsburg made a point of celebrating accomplishments and milestones in her clerks’ personal lives.
Judge Owens said that he learned from Justice Ginsburg to always remind his law clerks that, at the end of the day, the judge makes the final decision. Professor Clark echoed that sentiment and said, “it is [the clerk’s] job to assist the judge, it is the judge’s job to make the decision.”
Judge Watford reflected that he does not think he is able to give his own law clerks comparable experience to what Justice Ginsburg gave to her clerks. She would sit down and explain why she made the changes that she did, and Judge Watford said that Justice Ginsburg’s ability to transform her clerks’ work into her voice was a testament to her editorial ability.
The fifth question was whether, in the panelists’ opinions, Justice Ginsburg’s career as a law professor influenced her time as a justice.
Justice Liu answered the question by noting that Justice Ginsburg essentially had four careers in succession and was accomplished in each of them. She was both one of the first tenured women law professors in the United States and she an expert on civil procedure, including comparative civil procedure—she spent a year mastering Swedish civil procedure and wrote a treatise on it. When procedural issues arose in the Court, she would often get the assignment.
Judge Owens said, “We gave her a year, but she gave us her whole life.” Justice Ginsburg would go to bat for her clerks and fight for them throughout their careers, and he gave her credit for helping him get the job he holds today.
Judge Watford said, “It was a purely natural instinct on her part to teach her early-career clerks, and none of it was forced.”
Finally, Professor Clark asked the panelists to share anything else that struck them as important to Justice Ginsburg’s legacy.
Justice Liu answered by speaking about Justice Ginsburg’s battles with illness, which caused her to be in and out of treatment throughout the term that he clerked. He said that Ginsburg was “absolutely tenacious.” She always showed up to conference and oral argument and she was determined not to let her health issues get in the way of her work on the court. He also recounted keeping vigil over Justice Ginsburg’s casket at the Capitol Rotunda after she passed away and watching the people who came to pay their respects, particularly the women and girls who came to honor her.
Judge Owens remarked that Justice Ginsburg was the toughest person he had ever met: she had many “off-ramps” in life, but instead chose to continue working. He said that Justice Ginsburg was dealt a challenging hand at a very early age and that he has always felt inspired by her perseverance.
Judge Watford concluded with an anecdote: he and Judge Owns went to meet with Justice Ginsburg in 2017 or 2018, she told them to meet her in the Supreme Court gym. She wanted to neither miss her workout nor cancel the meeting, and so invited them to talk while she exercised. Judge Watford said that watching a famous “RBG workout” is one of his fondest memories of her, and that he and Judge Owens stayed for the full hour.
This summary was authored by Erica Hackett, Online Editor.